iekozz
Apr 28, 07:28 AM
However the iPad is not a pc, so this report is a bit on the Apple side here.
inkswamp
Oct 26, 03:49 AM
If history serves as a template for the future
Honestly, with Apple, history doesn't serve as much of a template for the future when you think about it.
Honestly, with Apple, history doesn't serve as much of a template for the future when you think about it.
spipenge
Jun 7, 06:35 PM
So, there I was...two dropped calls in the span of 10 minutes. I called AT&T;'s "customer service". I get an actual tech support person on the phone who gives me a bit of what I have to believe was unintentional honesty. In my area of New York City, the AT&T; tech person said, there were 7 towers. Three were completely out. One was experiencing 50% degradation. The AT&T; "tech support" person told me that there was no date when they expected the three towers to be restored. So...it's hardly a wonder I barely have a signal in my neighborhood, I received dropped calls and the 3G network is downloading at a whopping 678kbps. Way to go AT&T.;
mgamber
Jul 7, 12:47 PM
I've had a good experience with the new phone as well. With the 3G and 3GS, I was never, in two years, able to hold a call longer than 5 minutes before it was dropped. Seriously, not even one. Once I bought cases for the new phone and eliminated the antenna problem, I've held conversations over half an hour and then ended when I ended them, not when they were dropped, and data is at least 50% faster than it had been with previous phones. Same story with my son's new iPhone. I may still buy a repeater because I still get one bar and pitiful data speeds, but at least the phone can finally be used as a phone.
Per AT&T...on; pre-order day I went to the local AT&T; store to place my order and, as expected, it was complete bedlam. I put my name on the list and waited in line and was eventually called to the counter by "Troy" who took my order for two new phones, writing everything down and swiping the plastic thru the old fashioned imprint thing and everything. He told me that at some point AT&T; was going to shut down the online store entirely so they could enter their orders, he'd get them in as soon as he could and sure enough, later that evening I received two emails, one per order entered. He also said that I wouldn't be sorry, the new phones were supposed to have much better reception. Fast forward a bit and I get a text message from Troy telling me that my phones had arrived and I could come in at any time to pick them up. So I go into the AT&T; store and, once again, it's total bedlam. As Troy activates my phone, some idiot standing next to me is so mad that he can't just buy an iPhone that he slams his iPad on the counter so hard it breaks. I couldn't help it and laughed out loud and he stormed out. That's what kind of idiocy these people had to put up with. All done, both phones work and then Troy tells me that it was like pulling teeth but he got my 3rd line to be eligible, also. I had broken an iPhone six months ago and got an OOW replacement so it wasn't eligible for an upgrade. Somehow he managed to pull it off and did I want to get a new iPhone for that one, also. You bet! He'll shoot me a text message when it arrives.
About 20 minutes later I realized the phone had a problem with the antenna and needed a case. For some odd reason, a senior moment I guess, I went to the Apple store where I was greeted by two armed police and some girl who had attitude coming off of her like heat off a black sedan in summer. "What do YOU want?" she spat, never looking away from her oh-so-important iPad screen that never changed. I told her I bought a couple new iPhones and needed cases for them. "We don't have any" and that was the end of the "conversation". No suggesting I ask someone who wasn't an a**hole, no suggesting trying AT&T;, nothing. So I walked the extra 100 feet to AT&T; where a woman who wasn't busy being yelled at led me to a drawer full of cases, let me grab a couple and even open one to make sure I liked the look and so on. Later, when the AT&T; surveys came, I made sure to give Troy and that woman the highest scores available.
So it depends on who you deal with. The folks at AT&T; couldn't have been more pleasant and the whole thing couldn't have gone easier despite the circus going on around them. And I will never set foot in an Apple store again. They are the definition of needless, bulls**t arrogance. If my Macbook Pro, either Macbook, iMac, iPad or any of the 5 iPhones I own ever need serviced, I'll call and ask them to send a box rather than deal with that mall trash again.
Per AT&T...on; pre-order day I went to the local AT&T; store to place my order and, as expected, it was complete bedlam. I put my name on the list and waited in line and was eventually called to the counter by "Troy" who took my order for two new phones, writing everything down and swiping the plastic thru the old fashioned imprint thing and everything. He told me that at some point AT&T; was going to shut down the online store entirely so they could enter their orders, he'd get them in as soon as he could and sure enough, later that evening I received two emails, one per order entered. He also said that I wouldn't be sorry, the new phones were supposed to have much better reception. Fast forward a bit and I get a text message from Troy telling me that my phones had arrived and I could come in at any time to pick them up. So I go into the AT&T; store and, once again, it's total bedlam. As Troy activates my phone, some idiot standing next to me is so mad that he can't just buy an iPhone that he slams his iPad on the counter so hard it breaks. I couldn't help it and laughed out loud and he stormed out. That's what kind of idiocy these people had to put up with. All done, both phones work and then Troy tells me that it was like pulling teeth but he got my 3rd line to be eligible, also. I had broken an iPhone six months ago and got an OOW replacement so it wasn't eligible for an upgrade. Somehow he managed to pull it off and did I want to get a new iPhone for that one, also. You bet! He'll shoot me a text message when it arrives.
About 20 minutes later I realized the phone had a problem with the antenna and needed a case. For some odd reason, a senior moment I guess, I went to the Apple store where I was greeted by two armed police and some girl who had attitude coming off of her like heat off a black sedan in summer. "What do YOU want?" she spat, never looking away from her oh-so-important iPad screen that never changed. I told her I bought a couple new iPhones and needed cases for them. "We don't have any" and that was the end of the "conversation". No suggesting I ask someone who wasn't an a**hole, no suggesting trying AT&T;, nothing. So I walked the extra 100 feet to AT&T; where a woman who wasn't busy being yelled at led me to a drawer full of cases, let me grab a couple and even open one to make sure I liked the look and so on. Later, when the AT&T; surveys came, I made sure to give Troy and that woman the highest scores available.
So it depends on who you deal with. The folks at AT&T; couldn't have been more pleasant and the whole thing couldn't have gone easier despite the circus going on around them. And I will never set foot in an Apple store again. They are the definition of needless, bulls**t arrogance. If my Macbook Pro, either Macbook, iMac, iPad or any of the 5 iPhones I own ever need serviced, I'll call and ask them to send a box rather than deal with that mall trash again.
UnixMac
Oct 12, 05:49 PM
You guys lost me and prolly (I like that, Prolly) about 90% of this forum....
have fun, and lets see how many pages you can get this thread to go to? I predict, 12.
have fun, and lets see how many pages you can get this thread to go to? I predict, 12.
milbournosphere
Apr 15, 09:08 AM
Personally, I think it's great. However, they should be careful. Moves like this have the potential to alienate customers. That said, props to the employees.
flopticalcube
Apr 15, 01:16 PM
Ok, replace "True" for "Orthodox". Mainstream Protestant, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, G
reek Orthodox. Pretty much believe the same things. You can even throw some non-orthodox sects in there like the Mormons and still have a huge intersect on beliefs, especially on morality.
Except for the fastest growing contingent of Christians in the world, the evangelicals. Like I said, you are all finger pointing and being smug in your own belief as to the true interpretation. How laughable. If you are all true Christians, why is there more than one church?
reek Orthodox. Pretty much believe the same things. You can even throw some non-orthodox sects in there like the Mormons and still have a huge intersect on beliefs, especially on morality.
Except for the fastest growing contingent of Christians in the world, the evangelicals. Like I said, you are all finger pointing and being smug in your own belief as to the true interpretation. How laughable. If you are all true Christians, why is there more than one church?
sectime
May 9, 03:07 PM
I don't understand why someone would stay with AT&T; if they are having so many dropped calls. With Verizon offering phones like the Droid Incredible and Motorola Droid it is possible to switch to a more reliable carrier and still have an "iPhone like" experience. I don't see the iPhone coming to Verizon anytime soon. If you really want an iPhone then just get a Touch and get a Verizon Android phone to go with it.
Of course it is your money, but I would be upset if I was paying my phone bill every month and not getting reliable service.
That's what I did after getting my Ipad. Droid has great reception no more dropped and missed calls
Of course it is your money, but I would be upset if I was paying my phone bill every month and not getting reliable service.
That's what I did after getting my Ipad. Droid has great reception no more dropped and missed calls
CAWjr
Mar 18, 11:05 AM
I can't blame AT&T; one bit for trying to protect their network. And as some have already said, those who are trying to game the system are hurting those of us who are being honest by bloating the network unnecessarily.
Clive At Five
Sep 20, 10:08 PM
Umm, it's called a VCR. Do you remember when that was considered illegal when it first came out? Or the cassette tape?
OMG, you have a VCR still?! What's it like?
teehee.
Only kidding.
Still, I don't think it's legal to videotape TV broadcasts of any form. That's why you have to pay for it on iTunes. If you want to watch it at your liesure, you have to pay for that liesure. Whether that means finding (and putting up with) a VCR and taping it (illegally) or footing the $6 for the last 3 episodes of Lost it's the price someone has to pay.
-Clive
OMG, you have a VCR still?! What's it like?
teehee.
Only kidding.
Still, I don't think it's legal to videotape TV broadcasts of any form. That's why you have to pay for it on iTunes. If you want to watch it at your liesure, you have to pay for that liesure. Whether that means finding (and putting up with) a VCR and taping it (illegally) or footing the $6 for the last 3 episodes of Lost it's the price someone has to pay.
-Clive
novagamer
Jul 12, 05:22 PM
Point Proven..Noobs like this are the reason why sites like http://mac-sucks.com/ exist.
This is pretty immature.
Because unlike Apple , getting your own custom motherboard from ASUS / MSI / Gigabyte / DFI. means you have real choices , you can choose different chipsets from Intel , ATI , Nvidia , VIA. NOT JUST STOCK PARTS. I can get that 10 USB , 8 SATA , WiFi , eSATA , Dual PCIe 16x that supports Crossfire or SLI anyway i want it, Apple will never do this , even Dull gives u that much.
I've had a DFI board kill 2 CPUs, a few Abit boards that were extremely flaky, one of which won't run 4 sticks of RAM anymore, another that crashed randomly and had to be RMAd, and don't not forget about the bad caps that a lot of older Abit boards (hello KT7 series) are having right about now.
I've also had an Asus board die spontaneously when I put a (supported) higher wattage processor in it, and come on you quoted VIA. Since when has VIA been a GOOD thing. I remember swapping 4-in-1 drivers every week in order to find a stability that really wasn't ever truly there. With the earliest Via Athlon chipsets it was literally possible to install drivers in the wrong order, so that the OS would continually reboot- even in safe mode! Boy, that sure was fun.
Remember the Socket A processors and their accompanying core-crushing heatsinks? When you get heatsinks that literally have the nickname of 'corecrusher' which I believe a (Thermaltake?) Volcano did, then you've got a bit of a problem. You're using the same argument that enthusiasts use against dell, except you forget that none of those computers can legally run OSX and the accompanying programs.
I've also had a Xeon system, with an iWill workstation motherboard that actually ran without FANS for a little while and survived completely fine, and is still used by the person I sold it to right now. Stability is of utmost importance with workstation/server class hardware, and that's why you won't find a lot of problems with them. Even the original G5 dual CPU system sold in 2003 has pretty much no known issues, whereas you'll find a lot of other (cheaper) Mac hardware does. R&D; on solid hardware is very expensive.
Clearly you're a hardware enthusiast from an overclocker's board, and on that note do not quote an overclocked anything if you're going on a Mac forum where people use their machines to make a living: nobody overclocks their work machine unless they're a kid making $50 to do a website for their cousin or something like that, some people's day to day lifestyle rides on the machines they use and the support that is behind it (which Apple has been pretty great, in my experience, with).
If you're comparing stock configurations, the 3GHz Woodcrest Xeon is actually faster than even the ($150 more expensive) Core 2 Duo Extreme Edition (Core 2 Duo X6800) which is going to be only 2.93GHz. Also note that Woodcrest's FSB is 1333MHz while Conroe's tops out at 1066. The slightly lower performance of the Xeons, brought by the use of FB-DIMM memory, will be handily offset by the faster FSB, and it will of course allow for an incredible amount of memory, which servers and workstations need, to be used.
The fact is there are a lot of people in these forums who have used a Mac for their entire lives, and have never dealt with anything on the enthusiast side of the hardware spectrum, so they buy anything people tell them, which can make it tedious to read some of the nonsense that appears infrequently, as well as the hilarious zealot like posting of the few people who DO know something that try to come across as knowing EVERYTHING. You don't really fall into that category, but I think that you're probably at the wrong message board.
Go check out xtremesystems and have a blast, if you're comfortable running windows then it is quite fun being an enthusiast and getting the most bang for your buck, but you really can't advise or look down on people here that literally depend on their Macs to make a living. Have a great week though and try to relax a bit.
This is pretty immature.
Because unlike Apple , getting your own custom motherboard from ASUS / MSI / Gigabyte / DFI. means you have real choices , you can choose different chipsets from Intel , ATI , Nvidia , VIA. NOT JUST STOCK PARTS. I can get that 10 USB , 8 SATA , WiFi , eSATA , Dual PCIe 16x that supports Crossfire or SLI anyway i want it, Apple will never do this , even Dull gives u that much.
I've had a DFI board kill 2 CPUs, a few Abit boards that were extremely flaky, one of which won't run 4 sticks of RAM anymore, another that crashed randomly and had to be RMAd, and don't not forget about the bad caps that a lot of older Abit boards (hello KT7 series) are having right about now.
I've also had an Asus board die spontaneously when I put a (supported) higher wattage processor in it, and come on you quoted VIA. Since when has VIA been a GOOD thing. I remember swapping 4-in-1 drivers every week in order to find a stability that really wasn't ever truly there. With the earliest Via Athlon chipsets it was literally possible to install drivers in the wrong order, so that the OS would continually reboot- even in safe mode! Boy, that sure was fun.
Remember the Socket A processors and their accompanying core-crushing heatsinks? When you get heatsinks that literally have the nickname of 'corecrusher' which I believe a (Thermaltake?) Volcano did, then you've got a bit of a problem. You're using the same argument that enthusiasts use against dell, except you forget that none of those computers can legally run OSX and the accompanying programs.
I've also had a Xeon system, with an iWill workstation motherboard that actually ran without FANS for a little while and survived completely fine, and is still used by the person I sold it to right now. Stability is of utmost importance with workstation/server class hardware, and that's why you won't find a lot of problems with them. Even the original G5 dual CPU system sold in 2003 has pretty much no known issues, whereas you'll find a lot of other (cheaper) Mac hardware does. R&D; on solid hardware is very expensive.
Clearly you're a hardware enthusiast from an overclocker's board, and on that note do not quote an overclocked anything if you're going on a Mac forum where people use their machines to make a living: nobody overclocks their work machine unless they're a kid making $50 to do a website for their cousin or something like that, some people's day to day lifestyle rides on the machines they use and the support that is behind it (which Apple has been pretty great, in my experience, with).
If you're comparing stock configurations, the 3GHz Woodcrest Xeon is actually faster than even the ($150 more expensive) Core 2 Duo Extreme Edition (Core 2 Duo X6800) which is going to be only 2.93GHz. Also note that Woodcrest's FSB is 1333MHz while Conroe's tops out at 1066. The slightly lower performance of the Xeons, brought by the use of FB-DIMM memory, will be handily offset by the faster FSB, and it will of course allow for an incredible amount of memory, which servers and workstations need, to be used.
The fact is there are a lot of people in these forums who have used a Mac for their entire lives, and have never dealt with anything on the enthusiast side of the hardware spectrum, so they buy anything people tell them, which can make it tedious to read some of the nonsense that appears infrequently, as well as the hilarious zealot like posting of the few people who DO know something that try to come across as knowing EVERYTHING. You don't really fall into that category, but I think that you're probably at the wrong message board.
Go check out xtremesystems and have a blast, if you're comfortable running windows then it is quite fun being an enthusiast and getting the most bang for your buck, but you really can't advise or look down on people here that literally depend on their Macs to make a living. Have a great week though and try to relax a bit.
iJohnHenry
Apr 27, 04:49 PM
Before Anton van Leeuwenhoek discovered bacteria with his microscope, many probably would have insisted that there was not a shred of evidence that any microbe existed.
We can see the ongoing effects of microbes all around us. Can you say the same for your god?
I expect that we will need a very big microscope to see God.
Is this why we have Hubble??
I doubt it, for with every amazing image we see, the vastness and complexity of the known Universe reduces us even further to the importance of gnats.
We can see the ongoing effects of microbes all around us. Can you say the same for your god?
I expect that we will need a very big microscope to see God.
Is this why we have Hubble??
I doubt it, for with every amazing image we see, the vastness and complexity of the known Universe reduces us even further to the importance of gnats.
QCassidy352
May 5, 06:52 PM
I had about 2 dropped calls in 2 years with AT&T; until very recently, and just in the past few weeks I've had a few (maybe 5?). Definitely annoying but my fiance has had even more with vzn, so what can ya do.
Sydde
Mar 14, 12:56 PM
Silly boy, the Earth's magma would swallow that 'little' pill with no problem.
And gravity has yet to go up. :p LOL
So who was it posting the map?
And gravity has yet to go up. :p LOL
So who was it posting the map?
Stampyhead
Aug 29, 12:42 PM
When did you all gain the right to be so selfish, self-centred, and bigoted in your beliefs?
Funny, I thought all people had "the right" to believe anything they liked. When did you gain the right to be so imperious and condescending towards others just because their opinion doesn't agree with their own?
Anyway, I'm sure Apple and a whole load of other companies could do better in regards to environmental issues, but it always seemed to me that Apple was doing a pretty good job. I remember the iPod recycling program in their stores where you could bring in your old iPod and get 10% off a new one. I have also noticed that lately Apple has greatly reduced the amount of packaging on their products. Of course they still need to use styrofoam to keep the computers for getting damaged when they are shipped, but in some cases their packaging is almost half the size it used to be.
So although I'm sure they could do better, I think credit should be given where it is due.
Funny, I thought all people had "the right" to believe anything they liked. When did you gain the right to be so imperious and condescending towards others just because their opinion doesn't agree with their own?
Anyway, I'm sure Apple and a whole load of other companies could do better in regards to environmental issues, but it always seemed to me that Apple was doing a pretty good job. I remember the iPod recycling program in their stores where you could bring in your old iPod and get 10% off a new one. I have also noticed that lately Apple has greatly reduced the amount of packaging on their products. Of course they still need to use styrofoam to keep the computers for getting damaged when they are shipped, but in some cases their packaging is almost half the size it used to be.
So although I'm sure they could do better, I think credit should be given where it is due.
Stella
Feb 20, 09:22 AM
I tried installing the android sdk, it is the usual linux crapfest of having to fix and tweak everything. After 1 hour I still could not get it working. Absolutely appalling, makes me wonder about google. Aapl wants max lockdown on all their **** but at least it works.
Ease of use - uh.. look at XCode:
You've got to go through bloody hoops to be able to debug Unit Tests on XCode! XCode can be extremely long winded, whilst in other IDEs - no hassles what so ever! I'm not saying that XCode completely sucks, but Apple could do a lot to improve it.
( Unit Tests considered being a vital part of application development )
Ease of use - uh.. look at XCode:
You've got to go through bloody hoops to be able to debug Unit Tests on XCode! XCode can be extremely long winded, whilst in other IDEs - no hassles what so ever! I'm not saying that XCode completely sucks, but Apple could do a lot to improve it.
( Unit Tests considered being a vital part of application development )
matthew23
Mar 18, 12:36 PM
I wonder if MyWi will patch their program some how to get around all of this. Anyone know if they have said anything?
Mord
Jul 12, 09:12 AM
Okay, people are hyped about the 4 core xeon. But arent we overlooking something here? Arent server processors designed to do substantially different work than desktops? Whats the point in fitting a >1000 dollar processor into a machine that runs photoshop and see it slug away? Im not saying thats the case, but I think its a relevant point and would like to know if anyone knows the answer. If its slower at desktop tasks, than we will be seeing conroes in mac pros. If its faster, then theres a pretty good chance it will fit the highest end one.
now, unless the other chap who said "anything other than woodcrest would be absolutely insulting" knows wc is insanely faster at desktop tasks, I think hes just building some negative hype. Conroes are supposed to outperform by a wide margin everything weve seen so far. Its by no means insulting
it's not slower at desktop tasks, at all.
it uses the same or faster fsb (1066/1333) and the memory is faster but has a slightly higher latency but with an fsb the latency does not have that big of an impact.
xeon 51xx > conroe.
now, unless the other chap who said "anything other than woodcrest would be absolutely insulting" knows wc is insanely faster at desktop tasks, I think hes just building some negative hype. Conroes are supposed to outperform by a wide margin everything weve seen so far. Its by no means insulting
it's not slower at desktop tasks, at all.
it uses the same or faster fsb (1066/1333) and the memory is faster but has a slightly higher latency but with an fsb the latency does not have that big of an impact.
xeon 51xx > conroe.
UnixMac
Oct 9, 08:47 PM
Alex you have made some very cogent points. I hope someone at Apple will listen.
TuckBodi
May 12, 10:12 AM
WTF? Why do people buy phones without knowing if they work in their areas first? If I went by what people say on these boards, I'd have bought a Verizon phone that wouldn't work in my area, and on a phone that's crap....
STOP MAKING PURCHASING DECISIONS BASED ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS!
Maybe you can help me out...I bought my 2G iPhone the day it was released. I did my research and knew I was go
ing to lose a few bars going from T-Mo to AT$T. At home (where I work) I was getting 3 bars, which was 'okay.' A year later it dropped a bar and a year after that it dropped another bar+. I've swapped out phones and etc. AT$T continues to blame me, Apple, my trees, my microwave and even my fridge.
About 2 months ago I was finally creeping up to the 2-3 bar range and was again getting okay service. Then all of a sudden, about a week ago, I'm back to 1 bar and multiple dropped calls a day. What gives?
In the meantime I've been doing my *research* on Verizon and hoping Apple finally makes the jump in June.
STOP MAKING PURCHASING DECISIONS BASED ON OTHER PEOPLES OPINIONS!
Maybe you can help me out...I bought my 2G iPhone the day it was released. I did my research and knew I was go
ing to lose a few bars going from T-Mo to AT$T. At home (where I work) I was getting 3 bars, which was 'okay.' A year later it dropped a bar and a year after that it dropped another bar+. I've swapped out phones and etc. AT$T continues to blame me, Apple, my trees, my microwave and even my fridge.
About 2 months ago I was finally creeping up to the 2-3 bar range and was again getting okay service. Then all of a sudden, about a week ago, I'm back to 1 bar and multiple dropped calls a day. What gives?
In the meantime I've been doing my *research* on Verizon and hoping Apple finally makes the jump in June.
BlizzardBomb
Jul 14, 02:12 PM
2003: "In 12 months, we'll be at 3GHz".
Mid 2006: "I want to talk about 2.66GHz" although 4 cores running at 2.66GHz (Yum! :D ).
Mid 2006: "I want to talk about 2.66GHz" although 4 cores running at 2.66GHz (Yum! :D ).
iMeowbot
Sep 20, 10:03 AM
DVR capabilities, i really doubt. I wouldn't be at all surprised, however, if the box had access to all the regular iTunes stuff (store, podcasts, radio).
ddtlm
Oct 7, 11:18 AM
Backtothemac:
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Gelfin
Mar 25, 02:27 PM
All Christians are not Catholics.
That's the only item I was trying to 'underscore' so to speak.
Christians cannot be used interchangeably with Catholics. By using the term 'Christians' one includes a multitude of other peoples with varying religious beliefs.
No argument except as to the point. This would only be a relevant criticism if I were holding Catholics responsible for an attitude held by some Christian sects, but not by Catholics themselves. On the contrary, the Catholic attitude towards homosexuality in question is common across much of Christendom.
This thread is about the Catholic Church, so I name the Catholic Church, but the criticism is properly aimed at the attitude they share ecumenically. The consequences of prejudice against homosexuality as rationalized by Christian dogma are shared among all who promote that prejudice. The Catholic Church is neither singled out (except contextually) nor excused on that account.
And if one goes back and reads the entire exchange, one would see that I used that term so that Appleguy123 could not go find some obscure article on some obscure Catholic sect that murders Homosexuals for fun, a sect that the mainstream governing body of the Catholic church does not endorse nor have control over.
As I said, you want to reserve to the church the right to disclaim responsibility for those who act on the principles it promotes.
I doubt you could find a sect who murdered homosexuals for fun. To return to the analogy, the Klan did not murder black people for fun. They murdered those who stepped out of line, who challenged the social status white people of the era carved out for black people.
As I understand it, the Vatican is the mainstream hierarchy of the Catholic church. Is there another hierarchy that governs the Catholic church?
The mainstream hierarchy of the Catholic Church espouses the belief that homosexuals must be made to conform to Catholic prejudice regarding their proper place in society, and that Catholic belief grants them the right to do so. The premise is wrong before we even get to the method. The mainstream Catholic Church pursues this agenda in ways which do not currently involve terrorist action, but they do pursue it. The obscure terrorist sect you've hypothesized would be operating based on the same flawed premise as the "mainstream" church, arguably even more consistently, since a common interpretation of the Bible does demand the death penalty for homosexuals.
As I keep saying, the immorality lies in the idea that one's prejudice gives one the right to force other people to live their own lives within the boundaries of that prejudice, whatever form that force may take.
That's the only item I was trying to 'underscore' so to speak.
Christians cannot be used interchangeably with Catholics. By using the term 'Christians' one includes a multitude of other peoples with varying religious beliefs.
No argument except as to the point. This would only be a relevant criticism if I were holding Catholics responsible for an attitude held by some Christian sects, but not by Catholics themselves. On the contrary, the Catholic attitude towards homosexuality in question is common across much of Christendom.
This thread is about the Catholic Church, so I name the Catholic Church, but the criticism is properly aimed at the attitude they share ecumenically. The consequences of prejudice against homosexuality as rationalized by Christian dogma are shared among all who promote that prejudice. The Catholic Church is neither singled out (except contextually) nor excused on that account.
And if one goes back and reads the entire exchange, one would see that I used that term so that Appleguy123 could not go find some obscure article on some obscure Catholic sect that murders Homosexuals for fun, a sect that the mainstream governing body of the Catholic church does not endorse nor have control over.
As I said, you want to reserve to the church the right to disclaim responsibility for those who act on the principles it promotes.
I doubt you could find a sect who murdered homosexuals for fun. To return to the analogy, the Klan did not murder black people for fun. They murdered those who stepped out of line, who challenged the social status white people of the era carved out for black people.
As I understand it, the Vatican is the mainstream hierarchy of the Catholic church. Is there another hierarchy that governs the Catholic church?
The mainstream hierarchy of the Catholic Church espouses the belief that homosexuals must be made to conform to Catholic prejudice regarding their proper place in society, and that Catholic belief grants them the right to do so. The premise is wrong before we even get to the method. The mainstream Catholic Church pursues this agenda in ways which do not currently involve terrorist action, but they do pursue it. The obscure terrorist sect you've hypothesized would be operating based on the same flawed premise as the "mainstream" church, arguably even more consistently, since a common interpretation of the Bible does demand the death penalty for homosexuals.
As I keep saying, the immorality lies in the idea that one's prejudice gives one the right to force other people to live their own lives within the boundaries of that prejudice, whatever form that force may take.
